Ric Dragon : Okay. This is the very, very first DragonSearch podcast. We’ve been wanting to do this for a long time. Mark Gilbert’s been on me to get this going, and we just haven’t. So, this is the very first time, because Joseph Haslam is visiting us from Philadelphia. We want to take advantage of his visiting, because whenever Joseph and I get together, we start chatting about internet marketing, the web, life, poetry, coffee…all those other wonderful things, and I just really felt it should be recorded for prosperity.
Joseph Haslam: Yes.
Ric Dragon : Say good morning, Joseph.
Joseph Haslam: Good morning. We actually did start to chat this morning, and [indiscernible] [0:00:56] “No, no, no, we have to stop.” So, you’re riding down and got a coffee recharge, and I’m taking the first portion of this, just for prosperity called me, and then we’re about ready to get into.
Ric Dragon : So…you know, because actually, you and I have never gotten into the background of what you’re about, where you came from.
Joseph Haslam: True, true.
Ric Dragon : Well, what are you about? Where did you come from?
Joseph Haslam: Are we gonna do that?
Ric Dragon: Aliens?
Joseph Haslam: They owe me a…pretty much. I mean, me and Al are tight, that’s all I’m gonna say, you know. But my background, corporate background was with DuPont and I basically did every job imaginable there; about every 18 months, went to a different function. Did things like Global Supply Chain, the CFO for a business – small business in DuPont, that’s still a $548 million business. Also had…
Ric Dragon : Would it be infringing on your privacy, that this started when? The 90’s or…?
Joseph Haslam : Yeah, in the 90’s.
Ric Dragon: Yeah, just trying to figure out how old you are, Joseph, but…
Joseph Haslam : Well, you know, I think we already know I’m one year younger than you, so…
Ric Dragon: Yeah, so…
Joseph Haslam : So, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Ric’s got me by a year.
Ric Dragon: Spring chicken.
Joseph Haslam : Spring chickens. And when I left DuPont, my vision was bought by Koch Industries, K-O-C-H. And at that time I was doing mergers and acquisitions in Asia. Really, it was strategic alliances based upon an off shore property. So, instead of us investing cash into a joint venture, we didn’t. Memorandum’s understanding lives of intent or to governance, and we put our IP in with a partner and got back product from that, and renewed an intellectual property.A very sweet deal.
Ric Dragon: But, you know, how…what gave you the background to do that? That’s some pretty smart, deep stuff.
Joseph Haslam : Well, my…you know, my skill set basically is in terms of systems thinking has nothing to do with IT. So, I break it down. I take a look at people and people systems and I just have always been fascinated with gaming theory and systems thinking and negotiation. Pretty much, everything is some type of decision tree or influence diagram or…then I’ll start thinking. I’m just wired that way. So…
Ric Dragon: Were you actually part of the CIA?
Joseph Haslam : No, no, no.
Ric Dragon: It’s just…
Joseph Haslam : I always wanted to be. It’s so cool. I, like have MacGyver skills. I figure, me and a paperclip can do almost anything, right. My proudest ever IT implementation was one that we didn’t do. So, I used something called MEME from Chesapeak and it was a…more like a plant scheduling system. It was actually built by Exxon initially, and the scheduling went refineries. We were using it for textile production and we were trying to figure out what recipe to put in the continuous polymerization vessel, to then go through the spinnerets, to then draw and bail and all that for, on the extra staple part. And we put that in, and they had like a lot of living or programming, certain aspects to it and super technical business rules, basically, that are being read. You really had to be programmer and understand how to use it. So, the technical department wanted to put in a $10 million back of the operation system, that would figure out what products to draw and then cut down, and they had this proposed, and at the time, I had both IT and finance, so I was in charge of the proving and getting the projects and taking to upper management for approval. Instead, I got the biggest whiteboard that they made at the time; I put it on the wall. I showed the output of the MEME Program, what was coming to the drawing machines, but we laid out the machine centers on the board. We had hand written areas where you would put the products that were being spun there, and I called it the visual management system. And so, because we were able to stand there and see and look at what was happening, and talk about it up there, everyone could keep it all in their heads in that moment…
MSP2: [indiscernible] [0:04:30 – 0:04:32] connected to the programming?
Joseph Haslam : No, no, no. It wasn’t [indiscernible] [0:04:35] escape.
Ric Dragon: That would be cool.
Joseph Haslam : That would be way cool. Yeah, that’s…that, you and I were talking about that last night. That’s what’s happening.
Ric Dragon: With the SMART Boards now, yeah.
Joseph Haslam : I know. There was no SMART Boards back then. We would just have a little planning meeting. They’d write whatever changes happened to the spinning schedule and they would write in at the end, just end of shift, beginning of shift – we had, like, “hill street blues.” But the end of shift, beginning of shift, they’d say what was going on. We knew how much had been produced, how much there ought to be produced, what the bottle necks were, and you can see it all. So, it made great decisions. It cost…it was kind of expensive at the time; it was like a $1000 whiteboard, which was real expensive for a whiteboard back then. It was huge…I mean, it took over the better part of the wall, and saved $10 million dollars.
Ric Dragon: [indiscernible] [0:05:16].
Joseph Haslam : For a system that nobody was…really – these guys were farmers that we were working with. They weren’t gonna be able to really…manipulate that system.
Ric Dragon: Sounds like doing things, you know, when you choose to do things with index cards instead of a computer program, today. But sometimes, it would be more efficient.
Joseph Haslam : Yeah, I think so, too. You talked about that some last night. You know, proto-typing on paper before you put it in the system makes sense every time.
Ric Dragon: So, that must have been a vast education for you, I would imagine?
Joseph Haslam : It was. It was. DuPont trained me on a lot of different things. And so, now let’s jump forward. I used that background skill set to help small to medium sized businesses out; that’s just where it landed.
Ric Dragon: Right. It sounds…it seems like using a bazooka to kill a fly.
Joseph Haslam : It is, to some degree. Part of what I’m playing around with now, the Somi World [phonetic] [0:06:00] is getting back to some of the larger Fortune 500 type companies, and taking everything that I’ve learned, because you can prototype things faster in that environment. You get these crazy entrepreneurs that want to do something. They’ll throw some money at it and they’re no where near as risk adverse as the large Fortune 500 companies.
Ric Dragon: No. So, there’s…because what you were doing before as the assistant systems analysis business, you know, process analysis…
Joseph Haslam : Business rules.
Ric Dragon: Business rules, all of that, right.
Joseph Haslam : Business re-engineering.
Ric Dragon: And then you jump forward and you’re in the marketing world.
Joseph Haslam : Correct.
Ric Dragon: That’s a big leap.
Joseph Haslam : No, it’s not a big leap at all, whatsoever, I mean, because if you take a look at…my simple version of a business chart is marketing in the real sense of the word. Some people, they call that sales but then they mistake…marketing started out with “go to market.” You literally went to market…think about it. So back, whatever, you had a medieval day. You got to the market, you had your project – whatever it is – you know. Your yarn that you made from the sheep, and you stood up there on your version of the soap box, and you pitch it to people. And if you’re any good, you made relationships with the butcher and the candlestick maker and the baker. And they got to like your yarns, and you borrowed back and forth. And then people came in town, and they would refer the new people to you. That’s how most successful people operated and that was their marketing. They’re marketing-ship was based upon having their – what we, they call tagline or brand position.
It was also based upon their people skills, their networking skills. All things being equal — in fact they went to buy their painting from you, or the yarn from you, because you were like a nicer person then. The person, maybe, had a differentiated product, but no one really wanted to do business with them.
Ric Dragon: Right. So, you see, marketing as a core part of the bigger business process?
Joseph Haslam : Absolutely. Well, I’ll say, my organization chart goes marketing and all else just to force people into thinking about it. But you don’t need…
Ric Dragon: There won’t those parts of marketing that have been a big surprise to like…?
Joseph Haslam : The surprise to me actually, right now, is the huge disconnect that I’m saying on Twitter, between people who…the hardcore marketing people who are “press the flesh” kind of people, for the most part, and who haven’t seen or understood the value of Twitter yet, are letting 23 year olds who just graduated from college, try to run Sony programs for them, and then they miss all the benefit of that initial experience that who came later at the time. See, there’s a huge disconnect right now that I’m seeing. And I see people grab their off-message. I actually talked about this in New York City yesterday. Off message doesn’t mean… at Sky Rank off-message doesn’t mean that you’re talking about your kid, or you’re talking about your puppy, you’re talking about having coffee you’re your friends. That’s more message for me. That’s part of the social interaction. “Off message” means what you’re talking about or even Tweeting about or what you’re referring back to people, isn’t cohesive. It isn’t integrated with all the rest of your brand images and your taglines and your messaging through lack of cohesion. They’re trying to do something different on Twitter, A. And B, a lot of people violate…I know, Ric, you see this all the time. They violate the relationship part.
Ric Dragon: Yeah, they broadcast their promotion.
Joseph Haslam : Yeah. Yeah, they remote broadcast. Nobody wants to be…okay. The three people I know, and they also watch the pyschic network and they get a all the credit card debt redemption commercials. Maybe they want to be broadcasted, but nobody really wants to be broadcast to. So to me, that’s the basic thing. The reason why I say marketing or else is because, a little buys, but if DuPont, gets such a big research separtment, then that research department [cell phone ringing]…Hey, that’s Chase Adams calling [chuckle]. Sorry, Chase.
Ric Dragon: Why don’t you put him on speaker for a second.
Joseph Haslam : Man, I should do that, more. You there? I’ll get him right back. Alright. So…I will go right back.
Ric Dragon: So, by the way, Joseph and I are on a Twitter group called Us Guys and Chase Adams, the fellow who just called, is one of the people who started Us Guys, and Us Guys is just sort of an impromptu group on Twitter, of people sharing a common hash tag as a means for group communications. Let’s see if we can actually get them into the conversation.
Joseph Haslam : Hey Chase, hang on a second. I’m gonna put you on…I got you on the speaker here with me and Ric Dragon here, doing a podcast.
Chase Adams: What’s up Ric Dragon?
Ric Dragon: Good morning, Chase. Joseph is here and people have done, like sort of an after me to get this podcast going and I thought, what better opportunity than while Joseph is here.
Chase Adams: That’s right man, that’s awesome.
Ric Dragon: So, you’re joining the podcast now.
Chase Adams: Oh, so I’m actually in the podcast right now?
Ric Dragon: You are in the Podcast. We can always edit you out but right now, you’re in it.
Joseph Haslam: Yeah, I’m holding the speaker phone up to the mic basically, and you’re talking in the podcast.
Chase Adams: Awesome. Hello everybody in the Dragon layer.
Ric Dragon: What are you up to?
Chase Adams: Oh, I just got off the phone with Carl Sorvino and kind of getting things done for the morning.
Joseph Haslam: Nice.
Chase Adams: I want to touch bases with Justice, real quick.
Joseph Haslam: Right. Well, let’s…when we get some pause on podcast for ten seconds, then I’ll jump in the hallway.
Joseph Haslam: Okay, Chase, it was awesome talking with you.
Ric Dragon: We’re actually being joined by another Us Guys, Jillian, whose visiting from Kentucky. She has been…get some sugar and a stirrer or something. Well, I think, you know, we’re sort of, like we’re going from your history of working for DuPont and how it’s carried over into marketing and how marketers aren’t using Twitter at all, that well. And that’s where we started…
Joseph Haslam: Yeah, I mean, that’s a gross earned statement, alright, because some of them obviously are. But, you can see a lot of people just not getting it right. And there’s other people that are part of the Us Guys crowd…Ted Cohen and Ty Sullivan, who are customer service people hanging out with the Marsha Collier’s of the world. And you know, a lot of people are interested in trying to help. But in my mind, you know, in talking about it, it’s all about, you got to back to those basics. You gotta locate yourself in a medieval market place, understand what your message is, understand you need to build relationships to be successful and this is just another channel, you know, so to speak, to do that on.
Ric Dragon: You know it’s funny, I’m seeing it a lot less in turns of engaging, albeit not, and that might be the apostasy in the social media circles. But, when the Brian Solis and the Asian and what not, we think in terms of, “Well, it’s social media and it’s one-on-one engagement” and it is very, very powerful when it does happen. But I also think that some of the best cases of social media I’m seeing, are not necessarily about that one-on-one engagement. And a great example of that is Nike and what they’re doing on Facebook. And they’re totally communicating it from a passion point of, you know, celebrating the great things happening in school. So they’ll say, “Oh, Cocah, so & so, congratulations on your 900th consecutive win. Your awesome.” So, they’re just celebrating that…
Joseph Haslam: Right…well, no, that’s a good point but that’s still engagement. I think you make an excellent point that the danger of Twitter, or any social media strategly like that. Facebook would be another one that you can’t afford to engage at the individual level. It’s a paradox , you have to but you can’t afford to at the exact same time. So, depending upon who the Brand is and what, and how the community is trying to rebuild, you create proxies for that. Now Nike is tapping into this basic, you know, competitive spirit and sports passion and, you know. If I say, “Around my neck of the woods…” we are, like 20 people jump and scream Penn State. Yeah, because that’s iconic to them and it means something to them and the winnings, or that passion that they have for the past two days…a few days, like into the play. Nike does an excellent at tapping into that. So, it is engagement.
Ric Dragon: It’s engagement, but they’re certainly not doing the one-on-one engagement.
Joseph Haslam: No, and I think you got a great role model for how you invoke that emotional response, and emotionally connect to people, which is engagement, without having to have that one-on-one competition. And there’s different ways. We were talking earlier, you have on your board one of your clients, that they were doing some type of gifting…everybody reaching out, looking for people who were using a special media service and they were gifting them. And they had me… a couple times a day, they’d send a gift out. Well, you know, people are kind of funny. They don’t think that they could get that next gift, even though it’s two a day and they’re talking to 100,000 people. But, it’s important engagement, something that they can emotionally connect to and feel good about. And also seek to or inspire to…
Ric Dragon: Well, what’s interesting though, on other brand levels, there are different levels of Brands, or the Nikes of the world, the Coca-cola’s of the world, and that’s sort of a mega Brand. And then you’ve got the Brands that are denumerable Brands, at a whole another level.
For instance, your clients – to them, it is not a megabrand, but there are celebrated American Brand. And on their behalf, we do a lot of one-on-one engagement. We actually engage individually with individual interior designers or architects. You know, we can at that level.
Joseph Haslam: Right. That’s a great example then. And you’re making it a personal conversation, but by having that personal conversation in the social media – I mean we call them “lurkers” right? You know you scratch your name. You know what these people have to watch? And they come eating everyday on them with a comment. But, they’re just watching the stream. It’s very informational for them. And they’re picking up that because you’re having – Okay – You’re speaking, and you’re gonna speak. So, a part of that is that, as I know you know, you may be short this time, but many is the story telling component, and people need to locate themselves in that story, need to even make that connection with them. So, one of the best advices you ever here is, “Talk to somebody.” So now, when they joined, entered the room, and we can pretend we’re talking to her, and pitch the story to her. Now, by putting that personal element into it, other people get drawn in on that feeling…on that emotional element.
Ric Dragon: By the way, so since you mentioned the speaking and the data aspect of things, I just want to mention a book I jut got. Where is it…oh, it’s not within reach one now. But Nancy Duarte, who wrote Sideology and she wrote a new book called Resonate, about speaking.
Joseph Haslam: That is the one I thought was little much and it went to my head.
Ric Dragon: Incredible book and she talks about the notion that you’re telling the hero tale, but you’re not the hero – as the speaker, you’re not the hero. And she talks about the audience being the hero, and your role is more like Yoda the mentor and you’re gonna help take them to that hero adventure.
Joseph Haslam: Exactly. Yeah, now, it’s perfect…that’s perfect. Matter of fact, even customer service go back to the tie salt and take coin from it. When you…when a company screws up, that’s the best opportunity to create engagement. So, for me…and by owning that mistake and rectifying that mistake, they get emotional adherence. They’re the people who, generally, now want to be business with them, because they were seeing part of the hero’s journey actually. Well, get recovery from that.
Ric Dragon: Now listen, that’s interesting idea of taking that concept of Hero’s journey into customer service.
Joseph Haslam: Absolutely. I mean, why not? If they…think about how much more successful than what’s gonna – might have been, had they engaged at that light, versus what they tried to do.
Ric Dragon: They could have done a lot of things, to be more successful. So, while we’re taking a quick pause, to say Hi to Jillian…Jillian, we’re recording a podcast right now but very first, the main voyage DragonSearch Outcast…
Jillian: Oh, okay.
Ric Dragon: …you’re part of it. And Jillian is visiting us from Kentucky. Go on as usual, Jillian, come on.
Joseph Haslam: There’s room for coffee at the table.
Ric Dragon: So, you landed in Kingston, New York in the middle of a snow storm?
Jillian: I landed.
Ric Dragon: Yeah, but how do you know…how you like that snow storm? How do you rate this business?
Jillian: Well, you always make it sound like, seriously, snow armegedon.
Ric Dragon: I know. This is wussy stuff for you.
Jillian: Well, I’m not gonna say all that, but.
Ric Dragon: But, we should go real quick, to the [indiscernible] [0:18:25 – 0:18:27] because that’s how they started and used some great ideas, when I see it really is. And I think that’s the problem. They – the bloggers – who are and they think it’s over-structuring, what it is we’re trying to do. Quiet frankly, we did a holistic understanding of SEO, you know?
Joseph Haslam: Yeah. In our waxing part of it last night, from like, SEO, and it was one of those golden moments…
Ric Dragon: Nice building.
Joseph Haslam: …Manhattan, or something, yeah, we you just peg it. Yeah. SEO, you know, we used to give the…history of SEO, now it comes out, you know, sort of funny. Because as websites develop, everybody wanted to be top in the search engine. For a certain praise. So, you know, various things we did over time. We did metatag. We did keyword density, looked on the back; we can help. All of these things, and people will try to gain the system. And what I’ve come to realize is that when you start it, you are managing a perception of relevance. Okay. Let me…it’s a beautiful phrase. Managing the perception of relevance. We couldn’t actually manage relevance itself, although today that is what we’re having to do. We’re actually creating more relevance. So, by creating blogs posts out there in the world or guest blogs or not just the stupid link building, but trying to create links of connectivity that actually make sense, and help to create relevance because you’re moving today.
I think in the bigger picture, with the search engines, this what it’s going to be, most effective. Not trying to gain the system. So, we take that concept over to blogging. And I say, “Look, you’re gonna write your Blog post, we want you to make it relevant,” these would be SEO. And that doesn’t mean that we’re sending game the system. Stuff your blog post with a lot of key phrases. What it does mean is, hey, stop and do some research and take a look at the types of phrases that people are actually using around your subject. And when you look at those phrases, you can see what people are using more than other phrases.
I may make the assumption that people are using, you know, “Acme blue widgets” as their phrase, when actually they’re saying “Acme widgets in blue.” I don’t know that, and sometimes it’s [indiscernible] [0:20:44] for me to make that assumption. So, if I do the keyword research, I can find out how people are really thinking and searching in the real world, and then apply that to my blog post.
The other thing here that I don’t necessarily want to do, is keyword stuff, where I keep repeating that same phrase over and over, you know, blue widget, blue widget, blue widget. That’s not what I want to do. What I want to do is find phrases that relate, to the concept of blue widget and help beef up the contextuality of what I’m writing about so that it’s more relevant. And at the same time, better contact.
Ric Dragon: Right, right. So, let me jump off with that. So we participate in ,blog chat…hash blog chat and there’s always the debate in there between what I call the purists – the writing purists who don’t want to do SEO. They believe that it’s somehow fundamentally wrong, like in sacrificing one of their children to the volcano guy or something to do SEO.
Joseph Haslam: What’s wrong that?
Ric Dragon: Personally, I don’t think anything, but they do. They do, so, you know, but what I would contend, but I’ll them is they need to…anybody whose a great writer and aspires to be a great writer, what do you need to do? You have to go check your sources, for example. Which is exactly the research that we’re talking about in general. If you want to connect with people and you want to tell them a story, you need to understand what’s going to resonate with that. You’re saying the same thing, but you may have your way of saying it, your expression – that expression of sharpening the knives doesn’t resonate here as much as proper shoes would resonate. So, a little bit of research, she says, “Oh, that’s how they understand it in New York, and then she can translate her metaphor from the one expression to another expression. So, in my mind SEO…another thing that great writers were told, especially for blog posts; you already know this is to write in newspaper style. Have your heading…
Joseph Haslam: Pyramidal format.
Ric Dragon: Pyramidal format. Grab their attention. It’s called an H1 tag in SEO terms. Okay. Hit them with your executive summary…now, in anything that you were trying to persuade or speak on, we talked about the Hero’s journey earlier. But, mix up the concept of it; tell them what you’re gonna tell…tell them and tell them what you told them. So, you have to have that repetition of message as well.
Joseph Haslam: Well, and that also addresses the different way that people will read web pages. Not everybody reads web pages is the same way. Jillian may come in and read every single word and she’ll notice…that she’ll be the one who notices when somebody didn’t dot that “ i ” and whereas I come in, and everybody jokes, I’m on the galloping horse. It’s fabulous from up here. No problem. But I skim pages.
Ric Dragon: Exactly. Right, skimming. And then what I do is, I also…I’ll do [indiscernible] [0:23:25] and I’ll read what – and that’s your turn – but I’ll read the H1, H2 ‘cause it’s…I’ll read them, which is basically all the titles and subtitles. But that’s it…I may not dive in or I may find an H2 section two or three down, and then they say, “Oh, that’s pretty interesting.” And then I’ll dive into that particular pattern, which may cause me to go back up; it may cause me to go back down. So, in writing, you know, what do you do? You have to drag to get down on it. You drag, cleaning your outlining is the scouts, its running the SEO. But understanding the relevance and trying to find things which support your story out there…is the SEO research that we’re talking about. And I think any writer worth their salt, does get that, it’s just a matter of translating, you know, just speaking about SEO in a different terms for them to get it, to hopefully resolve this whole fallacious argument that just frustrates me when I see it.
Joseph Haslam: The other thing that’s interesting of course, in SEO leaking is so important. So, leaking internally from one part of the document to another and one part of the website to another is very critical for your site’s SEO, but the other cool thing that happens is if I link, and most Blog post…and let’s say your blog posts I’m giving you a little micro pill.
Ric Dragon: Exactly. Us Guys, pay attention to this. Jackie Onesety [phonetic] [0:24:47], pay attention to this. Brandi McCallum [phonetic] [0:24:50] at little ways at…I can’t spell your name Brandi but we’ll put it in here somehow, did a great job as you do and others, referencing other people. Now, that goes back to our marketing conversation, okay. If my name’s in Brandi’s post sheets, think I’m kind of apt to maybe, wanna retweet it?
Jillian: Yes, I will.
Ric Dragon: Exactly. And so, that comes back to the, you know, how you create the relationships, you got create engagement and you want it, it’s a gift. Now I get a back link from her post to my post, and vice versa. You know, very powerful. This comes back to your cloud information you were talking about last night, in terms of SEO and building up that, you know, that relevancy from the outside, which is really…
Joseph Haslam: And the dark side of it. The dark side of it, which is kind of fun, if you can call it dark – is if you think about the great French philosopher, Marcel Maus [phonetic] [0:25:37], wrote about the concept of the gifting society. And the gifting is not always benevolent and wonderful. You know, sometimes we help each other out. We give each other, “Hey, here’s a nice gift, no strings attached,” but often, gifts are given with sort of an unspoken string attached.
Ric Dragon: Right. So, bloggers out there, learn us SEO; it’s your friend. It’s gonna help you structure your post better; it’s gonna help you be more relevant to who you’re trying to speak to, and you’re marketing approach is to create bonds with other people, so that they want to give you this gift. By the way, it happens to be an all SEO back link, you gotta do it.
Joseph Haslam: I’m ready for this PRSA talk down in D.C. on how non-profits can increase their donations through SEO. And, well it’s a little story that is appropriate and also that it true to most Bloggers, is that someone asked me post a piece of content on a non-profit’s website, having to do with property donations. So, there’s a lot of people out there; they own cars, they own houses, they’re at the end of their life; they’re not going to leave their house to anyone that, you know, maybe. So, we want to give it…gift it to a non-profit. So, when I put this content up there, all I did was reinforce those key phrases a couple of times; that’s all I did. I made sure it was in my header; I made sure it was in the metatags and because of it wasn’t a real competitive key phrase, having to do with property donations, real estate donations, this page was top in the search engines. And as a result, several calls came through and donations – actual donations of property, to the non-profit. That were worth quite a bit of money, probably well in excess of $100,000 worth of property was donated because of this; just taking two minutes to reinforce the key message. Cool stuff.
Ric Dragon: It’s way cool stuff. I mean a lot of bloggers write about something that they’re passionate about. You writing about something you’re passionate about, I would think that you’d want it to be actionable and SEO makes it actionable; it’s just that simple.
Jillian: But I think like SEO comes out of, when you’re passionate about what you’re writing, SEO comes out of that naturally, because you do the high density learning, which if you feel that you’re passionate about, you would already be speaking in the terms that are relevant to that and to readers, of that like the audience of that.
Ric Dragon: But what we’re saying is that, technically — there’s a little bit of a technical aspect to where locating those phrases in the right place makes a difference in terms of SEO.
Jillian: Oh, you mean in like in a H–?
Ric Dragon: The terms of being found…yeah. I mean, yeah, whatever it is — It’s in the header, then the description, you know, wherever it may be. I mean, even the descriptions important. To get your description right, only because of, you know, you could just have – that could be the excerpt but that’s seen when you have the pages altered saying, part of description, that’s why they clipped there. If you don’t have a description, Hugo will sometimes or whatever, Bing will sometimes try to create one by reading it.
Joseph Haslam: Just the top text.
Jillian: Yeah, the first little lines.
Ric Dragon: If they don’t get it right…yeah, exactly. And so, there’s lots of different ways that you can do it, which are pretty simple, a lot of nice WordPress plug-ins that help you with that; even give you suggestions for it.
Joseph Haslam: All in one SEO if you’re on WordPress is definitely the top plug-in for the [indiscernible] [0:29:01].
Ric Dragon: [indiscernible] [0:29:02] something else, I’ll check that one out.
Joseph Haslam: But yeah, it is, and part of the problem is that SEO has got such a bum wrap, that it’s about manipulating a game in the system.
Ric Dragon: But, I want to thank both Jillian Jackson and Joseph Haslam…Haslam, how do you say it.
Joseph Haslam. Haslam, a cow’s lamb.
Ric Dragon: It’s sort of like the lion and the…
Joseph Haslam: Haslam, yeah,that’s right.
Ric Dragon: Thank you both for being a part of this main voyage of our podcast here at DragonSearch. Thank you.
Jillian: Thank you, for having us.
Joseph Haslam: Thank you.
Jillian: Oh, [indiscernible] [0:29:33].
Announcer: Thank you for listening to Online Marketing For Competitive Advantage with Ric Dragon and the crew at DragonSearch. If you have any thoughts, comments, responses, or would otherwise like to make a connection with, visit dragonsearchmarketing.com/blog.